Special Guest: Beagle Freedom Project with Melissa McWilliams

Host Jennifer: Well, welcome back to another episode. And today we have a really special guest and I am super, super excited to talk about this topic and really get in to what, what this organization does and who we're talking with.

And that is Melissa McWilliams, and she's here with beagle freedom project. And if you haven't heard about the beagle freedom project, it's a nonprofit dedicated to rescuing thousands of beagles and other animals neglected and abused in the name of research, which talk about pulling on the heartstrings. So we are really going to be diving in welcome to the podcast, Melissa, please tell us more about this nonprofit and your mission, that beautiful beagle freedom project.

Guest Melissa: Yeah, of course then. Thank you guys so much for having me on, you know, we're also very passionate about the topic, obviously, of animal testing. Um, so any chance we get to share, especially with amazing partners, um, you know, we were very excited, so beagle freedom project is a nonprofit. Um, first and foremost, uh, we are an advocacy organization. Um, we are here to affect change and ultimately end animal testing. And while we do rescue, um, and rehome rehabilitate, um, these animals from testing facilities, ultimately it really is just a small portion and kind of, you know, for lack of better use a bandaid on the, you know, overall pro uh, issue and the issue of You guys have.

Host Dan: And whenever I hear advocacy, part of how I understand it is there's a legal side. I know that you guys specifically have like legal initiatives that you're involved with. Are you a lawyer? Are there, are there legal beagles? Are there legal beagles involved in the beagle freedom project? I'm definitely going to tell her, that's her new title. You guys haven't heard that before. That's good. I just came up with that for, I, I mean, maybe it probably exists, but in terms of like calling her that, I mean, um, so yes, we do have an attorney. Um, it's actually our president and founder Shannon. There you go. Yeah. You can tell, you can tell when you do like a review of like the work that you guys do, that you can just, you can smell it right away. Yeah. Oh, and she's been practicing law for a very, very long time and just P specifically has been animal rights focused. Um, so yeah, this was just something she could just slide right into, um, and continue effecting change. So yeah, we have passed, um, legislation in regards to, um, animal testing and the end goal is really again to end it. So unfortunately, like, I guess in the grand scheme of things, the legislation that we have passed, um, has been more like right to release. So once, um, it forces, you know, for lack of a better word it laboratory to release the animals to a qualified organization. So I had no idea that I didn't know there was any like other way to do that. Honestly. I mean, this is how ignorant we are is like, I, you know, it's one thing to, to make, like, I, I am aware that animals are used in certain kinds of scientific experimentation, including safety testing and unders it's like easy for me to grasp, like, okay, let's put limits on that. Let's try to end that if you believe that that's the right thing to do, but I didn't even know that there's an issue with like, once the experimentation is over what happens to these animals. So that's a big problem. Oh yeah. Um, most, I mean, most of the time these animals are sadly euthanized. Um, Oh, it's like, first of all, it's a dirty little secret, you know, if you need these animals, as you've seen, like with us even, you know, rescuing dogs, a lot of people going back to just, we know it exists, but you know, I think all of us have this like, well, it's rats and mice and we have this like, well, they're here for the greater good and yeah. Okay. We know about rabbits and now we're getting a little bit more uncomfortable and then, oh my goodness. You know, non-human primates, you know, but like little do people know it's literally like all species dogs, cats, um, alpacas, pigs. I mean, you name it is tested on, unfortunately, because of course there's like different biological and genetic, you know, differences in regards to how things react. But again, I mean, ultimately we know they're not human, so really, but, um, yeah. Yeah. So mostly they are, um, sadly euthanized. Okay. It's like the volume, there's just so many of them that it would be costly to find. Maybe that's it. It's just like, it's just that simple. It's just cheap. It's just like, if you don't care, if you don't care at all, it's just like, well, it's easier for us as a science organization, you know, we're just gonna experiments over. We don't need these dogs anymore. Why are we gonna spend our time and our money, making sure that they just get to actually live Well, I mean more so again, it's like, they don't want it to get out and as much as I think that sounds sensationalized, it isn't. Um, and then on top of it, it's, it's so much, I mean, I guess it is time. Um, but knowing like who to release to, and honestly they look at these animals as commodities, you know? Right. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And so a lot of, you know, to be the incredibly disgusting thing is there's, um, you know, uh, um, organizations out there, companies out there that have a breeding facilities and they tout, oh, we will purpose breed your animal, no matter what it is, ferrets dogs, um, you know, cats to whatever your tests are. So these dogs are already genetically modified in order to endure these tests. So for them, again, it does go to cost as well, you know? Um, and then the, you know, unseen of like, well, are these dogs like, can they even be, rehomed like, what about Sure. Um, Right. Yeah. I like to think of like, so my knowledge of doggy stuff is deep but narrow. Like I know a lot about the science of like metabolism and obesity and body composition and very little outside of that. And so I, my partner works in animal welfare. Also, she works for an organization that's called dogs playing for life. And basically what they do is like when individual shelters have animals that they're having difficulty adopting out because their behaviors are making it so that they're not really candidates for adoption. Um, they send them to D PFL and D PFL or like trainers of last resort that like are like the ones they call it, the specialists you call in to like try to fix the unfixable behavioral problems to make these dogs adoptable. And so I'm getting my first experience the past couple of years as we've been living together, it's like my first experience understanding how, how those dynamics work and how that's like represents such a significant part of why there's a problem with so many homeless pets. And it's kind of blowing my mind. And I can just imagine the idea. It feels like Romanian orphanages, to me, it's like, you know how there was the thing. And like, Jen, this might be like before your time. But there was a point in us history when it was like adoptions from Romanian, orphanages was like the easiest way to adopt a kid. And then it became clear that the orphanages, like, generally speaking you correct me. If you know more about this than me, Melissa Blake, they basically were like, not giving these kids the TLC they needed when they were infants. And so they were producing kids with all these psychological and behavioral issues that would go like being rehomed all throughout the U S and it was like, oopsie, that was it. And this, this feels like directly analogous to it. Same kind of things. It's just like, Yeah. I mean, with the difference that, of course they're purpose bred to be in cages, You know what I mean? And so they like, almost always, they are bred as, you know, puppy or, you know, they give, got their puppies, uh, just like right now. I don't know if, you know, in the news, uh, in Vigo, um, which has also an, a note of company. They have a breeding facility in Virginia with over 5,000 dogs. Um, they just, oh yeah. And they've got agregious violations happening. So we Have a campaign against, I saw that. We'll give you a chance to like, kind of like riff on that. I'm interested to know, like how, how did you get involved in this, in the first place? Like, did, were you brought in, um, you said that the president's name is, is, uh, yeah. Like, did she, was, did you guys know each other before she founded the organization? Or like, did you get, how did that all, how did this come about for you? Yeah, for, well, for me, I actually heard of beagle freedom project. It was actually Thanksgiving of 2012. Um, and it was, um, oh shoot, 2011. I know Shannon's going to get mad. I always ask them anyway, um, where, uh, they had rescued 40 beagles from a testing lab in Spain, and it was the fourth rescue for the organization, which was like, ridiculous. Like it was ridiculous. Um, and it's actually still our largest to date, but, um, it was on the news. Um, you know, I was one of those people. That's like, you know, I love animals and oh my God, how can dogs be tested on? And then mine. Um, and from there I fostered an animal, one of the beagles who's, you know, still going strong and I love the family. Yeah. He's Just enjoying life. And I'm like, this is the perfect thing. Um, and that's where I met Shannon. So bingo freedom project actually was founded, um, the year before. And, um, that was, that came about with, alongside her, um, you know, uh, attorney, um, legal work. Um, she had also founded in 2004 nonprofit, which was dedicated to just, um, education and animal rescue. And, um, so she'd worked with like local shelters do pulls if someone wanted to surrender a dog. So it was just, you know, general basic rescue work, which is amazing. Um, and so in that then, you know, fast forward to 2010, um, that's when she received a phone call from someone saying, Hey, um, I have, you know, dog from a testing facility, would you be able to help re home? And she was like, what? And I mean, she's been a, you know, a vegan for quite a long time. So of course, again, animal rights attorney, she's known it, but like, it just like sparked her. Um, and that's what changed her life and the, you know, trajection of, um, what the previous non-profit was and turned into beagle freedom project. Right? So An instance, almost the beginning of VFP, um, and I've been an employee though for just over a year now, but in a part for a very long time. Amazing. So when Shannon wants to receiving these communications of, we have a big goal that needs rehomed or the saving of beagles from labs, what are the, I just want to kind of like wrap our heads around what type of experiments are being done to these beagles. And I know there's also rescuing of other types of animals, but just kind of sticking to the beagles themselves. Is that a certain industry that they're being used in? Is it kind of a certain type of experimentation, I guess I just want to kind of understand more about really what's being done to them and why these companies are using vehicles specifically. Yeah. Beagles. Um, now of course we don't know, like specifics as to what, you know, the lab of course will never share that with us, um, directly. Um, however, just generally it's usually pharmaceuticals. Um, you know, we did know like one of our rescues, they were doing like Viagra type, you know, um, uh, medications or pharmaceuticals. Um, we also have rescued two, um, bagels from believe it or not. So in the industry world, you know, it's like, we blows our mind every time we hear something, but it was a flea and tick medication, which we normally think like, oh, but dogs need flea and tick medication, the test, like, it, it, it doesn't need to be done because of course there are alternatives out there. Like we know you can make a cruelty-free product, but like, you know, the dogs were just in some of the worst shape, you know, health wise that we've ever received. And of course, riddled with fleas and ticks and just, yeah. And you know, so again, it's just like, it, it completely breaks your brain up all of the time. You know, we have been around, I feel like everything. It's just like, oh my God, like, I would've never have thought of that. Wow. Yeah. It's a lot of like products, safety test. It's like when I think of science experiments, I kind of in one way in Jen and I were trying to think about how to frame this when we were like preparing for this show, there's kind of like two buckets, at least how I see the world when it comes to like experiments where animals are subjects, there's on the one hand, the research that's done by companies that make products and they're like, we need to know, is this thing safe or is it not safe? And we're going to basically subject some kind of animal to this new chemical we came up with or this new product we're thinking about selling and see if it makes this animal sick under some conditions or not. Right. And that's like, I don't know how, like, if that there's probably a term of art in the scientific community for that, but I don't know what it, but like safety testing or something like that. Yep. And then there's like the scientific testing, you know, I wrote a book about nutritional science about like what we, the vets in America are being taught about various topics of when it comes to dogs and cats. And that whole world is built up on, in way experiment, a kind of experimentation. And it involves animals as subjects, but it's really different in some ways from like product safety testing. You know, the quintessential example that comes to mind for me is like, um, in my book, I believe that the evidence already shows that carbohydrate is really bad for dogs and cats basically. And one of the ways that it is, is it's really fattening, it's more fattening than other calories. And in order to like demonstrate, prove up, test that thesis. What you have to do is basically give some dogs, a carbohydrate, rich diet, some dogs, a carbohydrate, not so rich diet and evaluate how their bodies change over time. Does this group get fatter, thinner? How much weight do they lose? How much fats did they gain, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. And then the results get published and the scientific community, you know, learns and moves forward is like, is it is a beagle freedom project perspective that like all that kind of testing really shouldn't be taking, like all that kind of science shouldn't be taking place either. Or is it like about the product specific kind of stuff? Like, can you help me understand kind of what the kinds of sciences like you guys are really against? Yeah, of course. I mean, going to, um, you know, with regards to food, for example, um, this is actually a great topic. It's something that I've wanted to push through and kind of, you know, do much better education and awareness. Because again, going back to like the flea and tick, we have this thought process of like, well it's for them, so it should be fine. Right. Um, but there, you know, obviously you need to do those trials, however, the way in which the, um, you know, the industry as a whole is set up is still cruel. So like, I am pedigree, you know, like there is a long list. What does the other one, like blue mountain? I mean, there's even ones that tout themselves as like super healthy and all natural and whatever, but they still go through the, um, you know, cruel experiments where it's like, these animals are still housed in massive testing facilities and it's like force sped, and there is so much evidence out there. So if like we look and we see exactly what they're doing, it's, it's cool. So cruelty free is really what we're pushing too. Right. Especially with the products. Um, and like one of the things that has, has really started to take fire and, you know, the pet food industry is, um, actually I think it was, you know, not to name competitors or whatever, but like wild earth, um, you know, they are a plant-based, um, product, however, like all over, they talk about how like they feed it, like it was dogs that they were testing us on. So they were like the lack of, I didn't want us to test subjects almost like Guinea pigs in your brain. Um, you know, and so, Yeah, well, I can imagine why. I mean, like they can't sell a product really without running that. I mean, like, I'm not, this is me taking off the hat of what's right. And what's wrong. And just trying to put myself in their shoes and saying like, okay, we're going to sell something that doesn't have the backing of mother nature here in the sense that like plant-based is not, it might work, might work, but it's like not mother nature. Hasn't proven that out for dogs and cats at this point, it's like, they could probably exist on it. We believe they could, but in order to do it, they got to test it. Well, at least that's like, it seems to me like, that's the only way you could sell that as a product. You got to be like, well, we're going to try it and try to show people that these dogs did just fine on it. Oh yeah, no, I'm not saying tests. I'm saying like the way in which they tested. Right. And that's what I'm missing misunderstanding about you guys is that like, your focus is largely on the word cruel and the conditions of experimentation. Right. And so, like, I know the Ft, so, and it's also confusing as heck, you know, because there are two different organizations in which, you know, we have rules and you know, whether your product or a pharmaceutical or whatever, you know? Um, so with regards to, for example, um, the FDA, like they have their own regulations, however, they have already taken amazing steps. I, you know, I say amazing, even though they're super small because, oh my gosh, no progress. Right. Um, to take away any kind of, um, regulation saying that they like animals have to be utilized in tests and whatnot. Um, so that being said like, actually right now, they're they just introduced last year, the FDA modernization act, which will yeah. Yeah. The food modernization. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Um, you know, as, yeah, it's right. It's like, it's an interesting time to be the FDA in the sense that like, there is these days, a lot of us take for granted that ant our pet animals, at least our family members, you know, it's like, it's a cliche at this point to say, folks get, treat their pets, like family members. But it's real. It's true in the sense that, like how you think about it and decision-making for the animal is largely looks a lot like how you do with the child and the FDA and how pet products and services have been regulated. Doesn't reflect that historically, because it hasn't always been exactly how people have viewed pet animals. And so FDA, rather than like, if they were starting an agency that regulated pet products today, it would look so different than what it really looks like right now. Because the way it is now is founded a long time ago. And it's like evolved from that original understanding. It's like, they try to make steps, but it's like, they're this incremental process is still looks kind of ridiculous in a lot of places, you know, in our world, in Jen and I's world, we see it with labeling of pet food products. Like what you, I mean, I'm, so I'm over here in Europe right now. And so usually I'm able to give an example by holding up, you've got a can of Coke, zero in front of you. Right. And it's like the, you know, the FDA's nutrition facts panel on that looks one way and you've grown very accustomed to it. I'm sure. And you've got nutritional proclivities for yourself and you're like, you look at the back of that and it helps you understand what's in there. And whether it's good for you bad for you, like the doggy equivalent of that, the FDA has version of that is like super far behind right now. It looks nothing like that. It's just like, not informative because it's grounded in this world in which like animals were considered something other than like people basically. And they're trying to play catch up, but it's still, it's just such a weird transitional period. Well, right. And that's exactly why it's, you know, going back to legislation and whatnot, you know, it's like you, we can't keep touting like, okay, well, we're going to make all these other changes over here until like Betterly, you know, and that was something too we wanted to do, um, with the beagle freedom bill, we, we tried to introduce it in That, But it kind of stalled out last year, obviously like COVID, people didn't care about that anymore. You know? Um, all that to say, yeah. So you've got the FDA, which of course were like, cool. But the USDA, which actually, you know, is the one that regulates all of the testing facilities. If you have to do any tests whatsoever, like everyone has to get registered with the USDA and they have their own set, um, you know, of rules and regulations and everything. And those are like light years behind. Yeah. That's really like the other it's it's interesting. Cause you think about the organizations and what their purpose, like it's that same quality of like, we're trying to sort of squeeze a square peg into a round hole here. It's like USDA is about like the food production system. And so it's like, it kind of fits this, like the, the notion that like some kinds of animals that are a part of that system should be regulated under this. But it's like, FDA is about people, including animals. Like it's about how they're like where their health and the products that they're consuming or using our health are like, are sufficiently healthy. And so it's like approaching it treats animals as like having a kind of personhood, whereas USDA it's like, Nope, they're just part of this system of production. And so it's like really arcane and really behind, Oh 100%. I mean, like it, it's almost, you know, unreal, which, you know, we're seeing too, when we do our like educational pieces and say, this is happening and people are like, how does it even happening? Nobody's Paid attention, plus, you know, and I know, you know, this there's so much money in it. Like why changes when people are able to push all these dollar bills into their pockets. And nobody's really caring, which goes to like the next point is social media and, you know, fantastic. Um, you know, people like you who are like really trying to affect change in your world with this kind of, um, media, which is awesome. You know, it hits so many more people than like the traditional book and you know, newspaper while those are great. I don't, I know it has somebody who spent four years working on a book that has been read by probably fewer than a hundred people. I fully agree with you, Melissa. I mean, it's great for like long term, but you know, it's like the social media, we put up a post and it's like, you know about our campaign and it's shared hundred times within the first 20 minutes. Yep. People are signing the petitions and we're like, here we go. Let's see If you understand the legal system. Well, and you know how to be an operator within that in this day and age with social media and other digital channels being what they are. You a little can go a long way. If you're the right people, you don't need a massive organization. If you've got a good cause and knowledgeable people, you can affect legitimate change. Not like it's, it's just grassroots can go a lot further in this day and age than it ever has been able to before. Oh yeah. I call them boots on the ground. Volunteers, what can we do? And I was like, I know this sounds so simple. Share tag. Like, there you go put out your own content. Like at this point you want to, you're so moved by this, please make your own video and tweet tag. Like I said, it's just like you right now. That is the most important thing that anybody can use for education, advocacy and awareness And that the advocacy component of it, of any of these like animal rights issues and, and animal welfare issues is so I'm telling you things you already know, but like you're watching me experience these realizations in real time. It's like, you're dealing with trying to improve the lives of a voiceless constituency. Right. And that is so it's means that political change that helps that constituency goes so slow. You know what I mean? It's like when people are advocating for themselves, they have a whole different level of like engagement. They vote with their, uh, well, they vote on issues that matter. You know what I mean? Like the stuff that impacts them directly, right. When it's like, when it's for a constituency that doesn't have voting power. And what you've got to do is get folks with voting power to act on their behalf, that advocacy and education and empathy building and all that is just like, it is a, it's not just like very important. It's obviously it's, it's the thing. You can't do it without it. If you take that away, it doesn't work. And so it's such an like that. Yeah. It's just a, it's a, it's a tricky issue. It's just really hard. You got to get people emotionally invested. Oh yeah. And it's not just like the one and done too with like social media. Like that's the other, like really intense part of this is constantly keeping things moving because otherwise you do lose interest and, and nowadays you're right. Like, especially in the political arena, people will only like, again, do tweet, email, whatever within that, like maybe 48 hours after. Yeah. Yeah. That's the downside of this media environment is that there's a new story every 20 minutes. Yeah. Yep. And so that's also where it's like, okay, we got to continuously create, you know, the buzz and the drive as to, you know, really affecting change. Um, let's flood their inbox for the next, you know, month. Right. I'm sorry, like after that, I'd be like, okay, you know, my inbox floods after like, you know, a week, if I had anything longer than that, I would lose my mind. I'd be like, fine. I will write a letter. I will call. And that's just what, you know, we really just need to do it's continuously push and empower people, you know, And give them something they can do to make a change that is really helpful. Yeah. Go March on their office door. Like you have that. Right. That's the other thing, I mean, I know that's the total side political conversation, but we need to Be, Or educating, you know, individuals with regards to that too. And so you guys have gotten your, the model registered, uh, re uh, legislation that you guys put together. And like you were saying before, basically the idea and correct me if I'm like getting it wrong, but it's, the idea is what the law does is it requires, or it allows for animals that come out of scientific experimentation to be adopted out or requires it, like, what's the release. Like, how does it, how does it work? So the verbiage is obviously tweaked differently for each state because no bills and politicians do things to, you know, our fantastic bill. We can, I'm sure By the end, we're like, is that even really anyway? Um, but now it's it, the general gist is, you know, once a study is done and complete that if they are healthy enough, of course there's always the polls and it sucks, but that they have to be adopted out to like a qualified organization, um, that deals with that, you know, which again, going to like a qualified organization really is inferring that someone who knows or an organization that knows about these animals, which going back to your earlier comment about, um, you know, the orphanages, I mean, it's almost relatively similar, You know, I can imagine, I can imagine Just they have PTSD, not only just again, the physical, but they'll have mental and it's hard, of course, fostering my, you know, my UNO was life changing and I'm not saying that like, in, in a cliche exaggerating way, like literally life-changing, I cried for a week because he didn't know how to, what I say, dog things we take for granted, you know, even the dogs, as you said, your partner, um, deals with, they still have like, have had more normal seats. Um, These dogs don't know a treat. They don't know a leash, they don't know grass. Um, and I know people say, oh, that's overdrawn motivation. I'm like, I will start sending you pictures of what an inside of a, um, testing facility looks like and what their play or enrichment, um, you know, their terms, uh, you know, environment looks like, I think they can get toys if they provide toys for like an hour and then they have to take them away, you know, sterilize them, make sure that, you know, the specimens are perfect for their test and I'm not kidding. Like that's, that's, Um, You know, so the like things, again, we just take for granted as to like, what you know are, as you said, family members are like, Hmm. And that's like, it's, it's hard to learn about in a way that makes you a legit expert in what's going on between the ears of a non-verbal animal. You know what I mean? Like the psychology and its impact to behavior, there are a lot more people in my experience that are self-proclaimed experts on that subject. Then there are people that have a true expert level understanding that can help an animal that really needs the help. And so it's, it's just hard. And it's a small group of people that are really highly educated that are like, that are really able to do that well. And your talk and your you're highlighting it just what feels like such a pickle. It's like, yeah, you gotta be a qualified organization. That's well, that's able to do this kind of stuff, but there just aren't that many folks out there to do it. And the funding for them is, it's just like, it's a, you guys do the Lord's work. Like that's, that's just, it just feels infinitely challenging. It is. Oh, definitely. And it, and it's sad because not that I want to say that other rescues are bad because they're All great. Sure. But you're right. It's, it's okay. They do what they do best and it's fantastic. And I support you and I donate, you know what I mean? And it's like, yeah. But when it comes to these kinds of animals, it's like, you know, a newborn baby in like a seven year old dog's body, they have no idea and they're scared to death. And it's sad too, because I know while it's great that, you know, there are lots of, a lot of labs that will, you know, release to local rescues. The sad part of that is the, uh, first of all, then they just are adopted out. And for us we're complete foster based. So they don't foster first. So that way they can decompress, you know, we have time to, um, first of all, get them their medical, you know, um, and then nude or whatever, as well as get used to them, you know, um, get to know them, are they going to be good with other dogs? We do find that most of the time they are great with other dogs and they feel comfortable, you know, are they going to be good with cats, children. We want to give them an environment that even though it is completely different and allow them to just tell us, so then either that foster at the, you know, the end of the time, they can say, oh, I would love to adopt, or we now can find the perfect home that fits now how that animal, you know, that dog, um, has reacted. So, you know, I feel like that decompression and getting all of the information that we need. We, we have a good pack that we put together. Um, you know, and we work with the fosters. I mean, the first month is like intense communication and conversation. You know, we also have our network of families that will message each other, you know, we have a social channel and they message each other. They share Pictures, common issues. Yeah, exactly. You know, how did you guys deal with that? And while we can provide them. So it's great that they have others that have, whereas, you know, with the rescue it's, you know, here's the, you know, here's maybe some sort of like literature, um, and you know, here you go. Yeah. And like, I'm not dissing that person, you know? No, no, it's just, we're trying to talk, talking through one thing that makes it really challenging. Yeah. The thing that, again, going back to what's sad is many times then these families are overwhelmed and have no idea how to deal with this. So they're either returned to the organization, um, or We sours them on the experience going forward. Right. Right. And now this dog is going, you know, back to a shelter, you know, whatever. Um, or the other thing too, is, uh, we've created a sh uh, actually a shelter safeguard program because of the fact that many of them will just bring to the humane society. Um, and so, you know, here are these lab animals that are special needs, you know, high, high need to have a lot. Yeah. And so we reach out to shelters. We constantly try to have communications with as many shelters as possible to say, if you get a bagel with tattoos in their ears, call us immediately no questions and we'll find a voluntary. So there are a couple of things that caught my eyes. We were like getting ready for this. And we're like fast approaching, having been at this for another hour. So, no, I mean, we could do this for three hours and it's easy to see why some shows do, but some of the things that I haven't heard you say too much about yet were some of the things that I found most interesting about what you guys do. So you've got a new initiative going right now. That's naming names and I just butchered the name of the initiative, but you can tell us more about it, but I mean, basically what you guys are doing is calling out. I there's nothing. I like more than Dan's a very pro whistleblower let's get No, I'm just pro like for me, one of the few things that is emotionally sustaining for me in the work that I do is righteous indignation about bad people is like, when I feel like I see somebody doing something bad, that is motivating for me is more the good feeling of being like I did something good is, has its place, but being like that person, that organization is doing a bad thing and it just is motivating. And so I relate to that initiative that you guys have going on, but you're going to be able to explain it a million times better than I could. So like, I mean, that was actually a very, you know, good intro. So you're done. We're good. No, just to this year. Um, well, at the end of last year, I should say, you know, we had been more of like a low key, um, organization with regards to outing any laboratories because at the end of the day, we were more concerned with, you know, getting the animals out. And so labs we found were shutting their doors to releasing to us because of the fact we're con you know, uh, controversial, how, like we're not telling the labs, you know, like, we're not saying, oh, we got them from, you know, X, Y, Z. That was the idea that you got, you guys were like, look, let's take a passive approach with respect to calling out loud so that they'll be more likely to like, partner with us and work with us in it. Right. And then we can, can your legislation, and, you know, I, it, it was softer, but it was also different times. Like it really hasn't been until the last couple of years that I feel society has really taken a huge shift in regards to, you know, learning and disseminating. Right. Um, and so that was part of the reason why we did it. You know, we decided to switch our model and be like, we're advocating, here we go. We are, you know, people have wanted to know lab names and here you, um, the other major part of it is because, you know how I was saying, you know, in the beginning, of course, a lot of, uh, animals unfortunately are euthanized. Well, when they are ready to adopt out in the lab, we'll adopt them out. If they find out that it's us, we have a very high percentage of them shutting their doors. And then they go to just a regular rescue, or we don't even know, we don't even know what happens. And that has happened so many times. It's almost like unreal. Like after a while, you're like, this is what's going to happen. I'm going to call it. And then, Yeah. And at the end of last year, we had that happen. And it was basically the straw that, you know, was the end of the pickup sticks and it just fell and Shannon was ready to unleash her. It was Awesome because that's who she is. So it's been hard. I, you know, I've always had respect for her, but I'm not gonna lie. Like the minute she's like, I am done. I was like, I want to kiss you. Like, I mean, I've always been invested. I am ready to do, I need to put on, like, who do I need to put on? Like some sort of, you know, All right. So who's, so you're calling out specific bad actors whose one eye, there's something, you mentioned it on this show, and I'm not, it's not a brand. And I'm an industry person. I don't even know what that organization is. Yeah. So they, um, the campaign is open pages, naming names, and it's just an ongoing, revolving door of, you know, who's the next we're going to out right now? Um, the campaign that we are running under that is, uh, end in Vigo. So in Vigo, um, actually I think used to be like Harlan laboratories. And then, you know, they kind of do this. It's like a swallow or, you know, you're like, okay, 'cause, that's what, like, even if you guys sorry, but like, if you're super successful and you do end in Vigo, what that'll look like is that brand goes away and all the assets of it will somehow end up in a new thing. That's got a sweeter title, not to be the biggest cynic in the world, but I've seen it, you know, like, yeah. And w as we've, you know, continued in this campaign, we are finding, it's like, oh, I see you now. And you know, it is happening already. So in Vico, um, they have like four different locations. Um, and right now their location in Cumberland, which again is the, um, breeding facility is like in hot water. They have had for the last year, almost, almost a year now they have had multiple repeat. Like, I think it's like over 70 USDA violations. USDA is crawling down there. I'm not sure Which at this point is also like, unheard of that. They haven't shut it down. Like, like at this point it's like, you should have. So that's our campaign is we have a letter, um, on our site, which, you know, it's, it's a pre-populated letter. You just add in some, you know, contact information, which you can or can't, or you don't, whether you want to share it with us or not, that's totally whatever, but it does go to the person who's directly responsible for it. Like, has that power, the USA USDA, Like they can shut them down, a BFP dot or G backslash, O C N N as in open cages, naming names. And you go there. And if you're persuaded by the like, and I certainly am there's video there, and there's like written detail of the nature of the violations and they're pretty heart-rending. And, um, if, if you feel moved by it, you can submit and, uh, put the, put another letter on the desk of somebody who can do something about it. I agreed. And let's talk about some of these other initiatives as well. We have the cruelty cutter app, which I actually downloaded this morning. I was like, I have to check this out, love it. Can you do a quick touch base on what inspired that, what it is and how that really directly affects this end animal abuse. Right. Um, what inspired it is, uh, you know, of course it's overwhelming, um, to know what is, and is not tested on animals. Um, you know, as we've actually progressed in the, what is it, six years now that the app has been, uh, you know, developed there? Yeah, it was 2016. Um, we actually actually going through a, uh, app, you know, upgrade and redesign, you know, it's, it's ready. It was you guys at Napster in 2016. I think. I think those are the only two apps if I remember correctly. Um, but yeah, I mean, there's just so many products that just can pop up. So it's like, you know, the average consumer, um, even myself as a seasoned cruelty, free vegan found out, there are tons of products that you think are, you know, cruelty-free, but really aren't because the industry, again, it goes to this like, okay, you know, for example, for example, you know, is horrible. So if you look at your products and you see that little Unilever symbol, guess what, but, um, they have made a cruelty-free line of like shampoos and conditioners. So of course you see it, you don't see, you know, lever, or at least I think it's like maybe small, but anyway, right. So the app was geared to making it so much more simple to know right away. Yeah. Can you scan barcode? So it's like right away, you know, boom, you know, all the details. Exactly. Sometimes they don't actually have like, you know, the heart or the leaping bunny or whatever. Cause those certifications, you know, as I'm sure, um, you know, if you need to get product certified, grain-free, you know, gluten-free whatever, um, it's a lot of money. So some of them just don't and it's great because, you know, boom. So we can tell you, it can just from scanning a barcode, the app tells the consumer how, like, if it's a product that's in the database, it tells it what, like basically you guys have seal of approval or does it tell it more specific information than that? Yeah. It will give you a little screen, excuse me. That it'll say this product is cruelty-free and I believe it's in green. Um, and then, uh, if it is like what I said about, you know, that one line from Unilever, it'll say this product is cruelty-free, but the parent company tests, and then if they do test, it's like a big, and then you have buttons too that are like interactive where you can, um, share, you Know, Um, I want to boycott this item or this company. Um, so yeah, and then, like I said, there's going to be some development developments coming up shortly. So then I feel like it'll be, you know, a lot more user intuitive, but it's still amazing. And we have a team that like literally Combs through and like updates and changes. And this is global. I wasn't sure that was interesting enough to ask you about, cause that's interesting to me, it's like, how on earth do you guys put together a database? Yeah. And it's just like, are there enough listeners that really care about that? Because I care about that. So if you, I mean, that's a big task, that's a big ass. Okay. Global. So we have like a ton of users in Turkey. It's great. I don't even know what's happening in Turkey. Well, I gotta research that. Um, and so they go through and you know, users can also say like, if it does pop up with saying like this product is unknown or whatever, you can report it. And our team is so amazing. Um, every week they give us an update, we removed 90, you know, whatever companies will update at this amount, you know, 15 users submitted stuff and we updated and, um, you know, they actually, it's so funny because, um, one of the individuals on this team is solely responsible for like emailing, communicating, like with the right PR, like they've got it down to a science to know what to say to what to ask and how to get like the correct information and also written. So like, it is legitimate. Right. And he's like, even if I went in and researched stuff, I'd be like, oh, here you go. And, oh, thank you so much for that information. And we'll go do it if you love it. I'm like full of information here. So download the cruelty cutter app. Yeah. So that's what I was getting like, are there, what are the take home? What are like somebody who's listening to this show, they're learning about beagle freedom project for the first time, it feels compelling to them. What's the ask? Like, what are you, what do you, what do you want people to do if they're hearing about this and they feel compelled, Oh yeah. Help advocate and educate, you know, go to our website. Um, bfp.org. I know it's, it's got so much amazing information, um, regarding what our current campaigns are again, um, which is end in Vigo, please go and sign that, uh, open letter, the more voices again, continuously flood that inbox. It goes to his email. Um, you know, of course we love donations. Uh, we can't continue to legislate as you know, um, passing bills is also very expensive as well as rescuing these animals. Um, and yes, shop cruelty free because voice matters. Believe it or not, which, you know, should be indicative of how many products have already come to market just within the last year. It's unreal. So download cruelty cutter. Very good. Amazing, well, we'll make sure we have all of those call to actions on the show notes. And one of the things well, those new to the podcast and shoe off as the CEO of KIDO, natural pet foods, and he's supporting you all as well in, in June. So when this podcast is released, we're recording a little bit earlier than June, but when it is released, he's going to use its keto pause partner program, which I absolutely love this initiative. So keto natural partners with nonprofits, such as beagle freedom project, and they do essentially what's called a fundraiser. So for the month of June, you can shop CUDA, natural pet foods with a special discount code, BFP 25, you'll receive 25% off your first order. But $25 of that order is going to go directly to the beagle freedom project. Which so if you're on the fence of maybe trying a new dog food, maybe you've heard about the low carb dog food initiative and the health, you know, the health benefits around that. This is a really good option to try or, you know, maybe you're fostering a dog or maybe, you know, I think there's a lot of lines through that of just really giving back directly to your organization. So that is through the month of June through POS partner program. So I just want to make sure to put in a plug for that, because that is just one of the ways that companies and individuals can support your organization. So We are more than appreciative. Actually. We were sent a little bit of those calming treats and it's been, We've thought about how that, that feels like such a natural fit, but it's just like, it's funny that like the business aspect of this is like where we're all like dropping the ball because it's like, that has got to be a good fit for the population that you guys deal with. But I just, we haven't gotten the right people in the right room yet. So talk about how to maybe make something work there, but, Well, he's got a couple, you know, in our foster packs and we're like here, try these out. So super excited about that. I mean, it was, yeah, like you said, perfect. We were more than excited. So thank you again so much. Oh yes, absolutely. This is like, eh, we could do this. We don't do too many interviews. We often, it's just Jen and I talking about one pet food thing or another. And so this is a real privilege for us, but it's really cool to get somebody who's got such an interesting project and it's doing so much good stuff. I feel like we could really talk. This is just like, you're, you know, you're a woman after my own heart. Like we have had a similar like approach to this stuff and we could talk forever. You might even hire Dan one day as a legal beagle, who knows. Ah, yes. That's the main take home from this. If you got that out of this show, that is the donation. Uh, I mean, I'm not gonna lie. Like that is actually a very serious conversation. We could definitely, because I'm found it, I'm in the process of founding a nonprofit. That's like, it's, it's an advocacy type organization. It's like, doesn't really overlap. They're not inconsistent in any way, but it's like, these issues are on top of mind for me a lot these days as well. And so, but I'll tell you put that legal beagle desk, nameplate thing on the Christmas list for Shannon for Christmas 22. And she'll be stoked. I pro I don't even know who she is, but it sounds like something she'd be stoked about. Oh, I think she would like cry. I'm not going to lie. It is so brilliant. So, you know, the takeaway Is You've got a new title for Shannon and we'll, uh, save more, uh, bagels because she'll just be so much more motivated. Amazing. Gosh, we'll keep on keeping on. We only support your initiative. I have learned so much in just this short span of time. I agree with Dan. I can literally talk about this for hours. So thank you, Melissa. From the bottom of our hearts, we were so happy to have you as our first guest on the feed, your dog facts podcast. So Thank You all for listening. And until next time bye-bye Everybody.